Andy Logan of Grateful Guitars: The ClassicRockHistory.com Interview

Feature Photo:
Andy Logan – Wooly Mammoth by Bob Minkin.jpeg

The Grateful Dead is one of the few musical acts that can be said to have spawned their own culture through their music. That culture remains alive and well today, in spite of the fact that the band officially dissolved in 1995. Andy Logan of Grateful Guitars has played an integral role in ensuring that these ideals have not only remained intact over the years but are just as viable as ever in many circles.

As a psychotherapist, musician, and certified Deadhead, Andy Logan wears many hats. Arguably, one of his most notable endeavors is founding the Grateful Guitars Foundation. The non-profit organization seeks to put quality instruments in the hands of community musicians to carry on the tradition of live jam-band music.

Members of the Grateful Guitars Board even share instruments from their collections, including detailed replicas of instruments used by members of the Grateful Dead and actual instruments used by band members during their thirty-year career. Among these are the “Alligator” Stratocaster gifted to Jerry Garcia by Graham Nash, which Garcia played throughout the early 1970s, and Garcia’s Martin D-28—both of which Andy Logan is currently the steward.

Another recent endeavor Logan has been involved in is the release of Grateful: The Music Plays the Band. The seventeen-track compilation features performances of classic Grateful Dead material by groups in various sonic classifications. These include performances by the David Nelson Band, Afro Dead, and Oteil Burbidge of Dead and Company.

For those unfamiliar, just briefly, who are you and what do you do with Grateful Guitars?

Sure! My name is Andy Logan, and I’m the founder of the Grateful Guitars Foundation. We’re a 501C3 that gifts world-class instruments to jam band players. We also start programs to support music in schools because many of the arts suffer in schools for young people. So we’re trying to see tomorrow’s jam band players. I’m also a collector, and I’ve collected instruments representing every guitar by Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir from 1965 to 1995.

I loan those instruments out to bands who are doing recreation shows. They’ll pick a date they’d like to play, and then we help them by providing guitars that give the tones of that era, and it’s really fun, especially for someone like me or anybody who didn’t get to see Jerry. I saw the dead from ‘88 to ‘95. So it’s really fun to see, you know, them recreate something like a Travis Bean show or something that’s really unique and different, and then get to hear that live.

We’re also the stewards of Jerry Garcia’s Alligator guitar and his Martin that recorded American Beauty, and then two of Bob Weir’s [Modulus] Blackknives from the ‘80s and two of his acoustics from the ‘90s. We loan those out as well, whether they be for recreation shows to capture the tones of those eras – like a Europe ‘72 show – or just to inspire. There are a lot of bands out who are inspired by the Grateful Dead. I’m thinking of like War on Drugs, Adam Granduciel is a Dead Head. It’s really fun to loan out Alligator. We just did it this past weekend with Susan Tedeschi from Tedeschi Trucks, which is a huge thrill. She was the first female to perform with Alligator on stage and it’s just really neat. You kind of think, “well, maybe there’s some War on Drugs fans or Tedeschi Trucks fans or Los Lobos fans who don’t know the Grateful Dead.”

Then they’re at their show and see their hero playing something like “Bertha,” or Susan just played “Mr. Charlie,” maybe that helps beget a future Dead Head. So, selfishly, I attribute a lot of my wellness to the Grateful Dead, the community, and the music. So, I want to share that with the world. I want that to last in perpetuity. My wife and I feel like the Grateful Dead and their music and community are an elixir for humanity – especially in these divisive times. So, we feel like backing our foundation and all these guitars and gear and music is one way to help spread joy and love in the world and maybe show another way of being – a more inclusive way of being – which we think the Grateful Dead had done. I’m a psychotherapist also, so I have a lot of thoughts about how I think they’ve done that. But that is something that we’re passionate about and want support and see last well beyond our generation.

It’s an incredible thing and aligns perfectly with the ethos of what the Dead are and represent—much of which is about community. As you mentioned, many people, if they got their hands on Alligator or any number of these instruments, would think, “We need to put this in a box behind a steel wall and keep it safe.” But it feels very true to Jerry’s spirit for you to say, “This was made to be played. He would want it played.”

Thanks, Cameron. Yeah, I mean, it is, I can’t imagine it any other way. Then, other classic rock guitars are behind glass seemingly for the rest of their days. Those are from the ‘50s or ‘60s or ‘70s. It definitely boggles my mind. But the whole guitar-collecting world is strange that way. I have a ‘57 Strat, like what Jerry would have played at Veneta in 1972. Jerry was a Strat guy. A lot of the guitars that are in the collection might be reissues of a certain guitar, but that one’s an original. Those are very special, of course. When I got it from this place in New York, the frets were super low.

The guitar was in beautiful shape otherwise, but the frets were super low. I decided to get it re-fretted and the shop was really angry with me. They said, “you’re going to knock $5,000 off the value of that guitar as soon as you do that!” That’s really not important to me. The analogy I like to use – and I used to talk about this with Rick Turner, who was a good friend – it’s like buying a sports car from the ‘50s or ‘60s and then not putting new tires on it. It’s like leaving these bald tires because we’re going to preserve every everything on it including the bald tires. Then you go driving and slide off the road, right?

I’ve given that a little bit of thought myself. How much modification until a guitar ceases to be the guitar it was, or how do you navigate that?

That’s such a great point. Have you heard the philosophical idea of the Ship of Theseus? If you’re into boating at all, you know that the ocean or the lake eats them alive. So you have to constantly be working on them. There’s this philosophical idea that, as the boat is constantly being replaced – a new rudder, new boards – eventually there is no original board or part from the original ship. Then you could take all those old parts and make a new one that is the actual original planks and rudder and all that. So the philosophical debate is, which is the original?

My son studies philosophy, so he brought this to me maybe a little over a year ago. We’ve talked a lot about it in this realm. I am someone who grew up around boats, so for me, the original is still the one with the name in boating, it doesn’t matter if all the planks have been replaced, that’s still the ship, the one that has that name. But for sure, it doesn’t mean that all the parts of the original aren’t really cool and aren’t somewhat of a facsimile of the original. It’s a great debate, and it’s very funny as it relates to the guitar stuff.

Because when I was doing this guitar library, we were recreating, in some cases instruments, in some cases we were buying a Fender or a Gibson reissue of like a 55 Gold Top that Jerry played or something like that. But in some cases we were making a custom guitars. Ricoh, who builds for Bob Weir built me a pinky – like Bob’s pink guitar. W he’s doing that, he’s asking me like, “okay, are we going to put on this part or that part? You know, we’re recreating a mistake if we do that, right?” It’s always tricky because yes, we don’t want to continue some kind of mistake or hassle. But tonally, if it does have an effect on the sound sonically, I do want to do that. I do want it to be there.

Because, for me and what I see from these players that are playing in this style of music, we were fascinated by that journey that these players took. So, it’s really fun and inspiring to pick up for the first time a Modulus Blackknife like Bobby had with one of those carbon fiber necks. I remember one of the first things I did was do that little run from “All Along the Watchtower” where it’s like B minor, A to G, back and forth over the neck and you feel your hand just fly down this carbon neck. You go, “oh, okay, I can see why he thought that was cool.” Or the Travis Bean, if it’s the aluminum neck that Jerry used.

So it’s really neat to go through each one of these instruments and explore their process and the tones. What stayed is always an interesting thing as well. Jerry played a Guild Starfire and then he played a lot of Gibsons, which are like that darker tone, which I think probably he thought worked really well for sort of more psychedelic rock. I’ve read that around 1970 the band were struck by that – I don’t want to say country – but that kind of twangy sound.

Yeah, yeah!

I wonder if that spurred Jerry to get a Stratocaster and start playing more Strats. Because in ‘70 he’s playing a ‘63 Strat and he goes back to the SG for a little bit. But then he’s on Peanut, and then he’s on Gator until ‘73 and then he’s playing Wolf, and Wolf is a Fender scale. So, the Fender scale stays with Jerry aside from the Travis Bean years, which, that scale is actually kind of between Gibson and Fender. But basically, he wanted to stick with that that sound. I know everybody quotes Jerry with saying, “I’m a Fender guy at heart,” or a Strat guy at heart. But I think that’s because he liked that twangy sound. If you think about the music when it went from “Caution” and “Dark Star” and all that to Workingman’s Dead and American Beauty…

Yeah, there was that clear transition period.

Exactly, and how the gear matches that is really fun and exciting. Just as a fan, people are always like, “oh, thank you so much for bringing these out or doing this.” I always tell them, selfishly, I get to enjoy it too! It’s so funny because I watch a player like Susan the other night, pick up Alligator and you see them light up. You see them be inspired. Fans are such a key element of this genre of music. We’re part of this feedback loop and we are hanging on every note. So, if we can tell that Susan Tedeschi is feeling a little more amped up because she’s excited to be playing this instrument, we notice that and we lift up. Then she feels us lifting and then they lift up more. It’s just a really cool feedback loop that happens and I’ve witnessed it many times.

There’s definitely a magic with the Grateful Dead. I feel like the spirit of that band enters the room, even through the replicas – the replica Tiger or whatever it is. There’s a mojo that comes in and it just adds to the whole soup. My wife and I really love this music and what it’s done for us. I’m always joking like, ‘we’ll be done when there’s a Wolf in every bar!’

There’s always been that sort of symbiosis between the band and the audience, which continues today with all the various offshoots. It’s like a back-and-forth. It’s unique to the community almost.

Completely. I love classic rock too. I love lots of great bands. But I’d be curious to do a study on like Queen. How many tribute bands [are there?] The Grateful Dead would dwarf any band, [in terms of tribute bands] hands down. There are hundreds of Dead bands in California alone. There’s an amazing website where you can just look state by state of all these Dead bands. If you were traveling around the country as a traveling salesperson or whatever, you could probably see a Dead band almost every night anywhere, and that is crazy unique.

The other thing that’s crazy unique too is how many cottage industries are around the Grateful Dead. There are jewelry makers, there are woodworkers, there are obviously luthiers making all these guitars. There are more luthiers than you and I could name right now building Jerry Garcia style guitars, Bob Weir style guitars, or even Phil Lesh basses. How many bands have that happening – more than one person making replicas of their instruments enough that they could survive and make a living just doing that?

Steve Liesman, who is the player with Stella Blues Band and [Senior Economics Reporter with] CNBC, he said that there’s something about this music that makes you want to play this music, and it’s so true. I’m not like stage worthy per se, but I can jam with my buddies and we love playing this music. It’s just so open and there’s so much room for interpretation. Obviously tribute bands is the name that we use. But in many ways, we really need a different term for it with the Grateful Dad, because it’s really a genre all its own.

There’s also a style of playing for both – actually, for all three – of the guitars, there’s a very unique style for Jerry Garcia, Bob Weir, and Phil Lesh. Truly, there’s almost a music school you could imagine for all three of those styles – Jerry coming from folk and banjo and blues and, you know, makes his own completely unique style of playing which I just adore hearing. Like a ‘60s “Viola [Lee Blues]” all the way to an ‘80s “Row Jimmy” where each discrete note is like a ringing bell. It’s just so magical and so unique, and so that style is so Jerry.

Then there’s Bobby with his incredible fills and leads, even though he’s quote-unquote a, “rhythm guitarist.” But he really isn’t in so many ways. He’s filling little spaces around Jer with these little accents and magical, dreamy licks that that is like no one else. No one else plays like that. Then here’s Phil, who comes in as a classically trained composer and who plays the trumpet, and joins the Grateful Dead to be their bass player. Like, who does that? If you’re Jerry and you think about today versus back then and you want to be successful in rock & roll. You’re worried about your Instagram feed you and how many likes you have; all these things – are you going to hire a trumpet player to play in your band at the bass? No way, right? But Jerry knew. He saw something, and Phil plays the bass like nobody else. To this day you, you watch Phil and there’s just these incredible runs. It’s like a lead guitarist, and and it’s so defines what Grateful Dead music is all about.

It’s such a unique band where the sum was greater than the parts. It’s the same for Billy and Mickey, with their percussive styles and the differences, and all the different keyboardists they had. Nobody’s stepping on anyone’s those toes; always spaciousness and room for everyone; nothing’s ever rushed; nothing’s ever repeated. You could see a “Scarlet [Begonias]” that’s at The Spectrum, then a week and a half later MSG, and it’s totally different. That’s just so cool! I think that’s why so many bands are so interested in it and so excited about it, because it truly is a genre. It’s a place to stretch your legs and there are no rules.

Going back to the ethos of I think Jerry Garcia, very much so, but also the whole band and all of the people in the band, the crew, everybody – there was a no BS, keep it real, o judgment, live and let live energy there. I know for me personally; I found a home with the band and I knew I was not alone. I went to boarding school in the northeast and have a lot of friends with similar backgrounds – divorces and things like that – who felt judged; felt criticized or that things were conditional. Whereas the ethos of the Grateful Dead is so about just, “you are welcome; we are all here together to be in community.” That’s why I think you could see Bob Weir in IZOD shirt next to Jer or Phil in the tie dye and you could go to the show if you wanted. You know, I’ve seen people come in a tie to a Dead show. I mean, it’s not a common thing, but I have seen it. You can really wear whatever you want and you can dance however you want and do whatever it is that you do and still be very welcome.

I feel like with this Grateful: [The Music Plays the Band] C.D., it’s just that same idea. It’s that notion of, “we are everywhere,” that you get varied background and bands. It’s just so cool and I think it just draws people in. I’ve interviewed a lot of players in our scene and one thing that struck me too is how many of them were classically trained or trained in music schools like Berkeley or Cal Arts or what have you. So a lot of jazz players, a lot of people who really, really know music super well and music theory. I’m thinking of like John Kadlecik [of Dark Star Orchestra] and Stu Allen. Alex Jordan made the point these are all, you know, really knowledgeable musicians who study music and they were drawn to this catalog, they were drawn to this way of playing it. And to me, that’s really validating – as a Dead head – to think that people who study music are drawn to this music. It’s not just us crazy hippies.

Jazz is one of the closest—if not quite exact—approximations, but there are parallels in the way musicians in the ’50s might have approached a standard. One night, they might play it double-time, and the next night, they could turn it on its head and change the key—that sort of thing. Musically, I think that’s a big part of what keeps people engaged because it fosters originality and improvisation. In contrast, with a band like The Beatles, for instance—I’m a big Beatles fan—you’ve got these world-class tribute bands, but they’re performing a note-by-note recreation of exactly what The Beatles did. With a Dead tribute band, however, you never quite know what you’re going to get.

Exactly, and that’s some of the excitement about it. I’m thinking of Garrett Deloian who plays in Jerry’s Middle Finger. His playing has this unbridled quality and that’s what I felt from Jerry. As an example, like with [“All Along the] Watchtower”, you never knew what you were going to get. Sometimes you might hear a clam in that jam; sometimes it’s the most ripping thing you’ve ever heard. It’s just that excitement of not knowing what you were going to get at each show, I will never forget it. It was an experience like no other. As they say, there’s nothing like a Grateful Dead concert.

When you were there, you felt like you were in one of the coolest rooms in the in the world, if not the coolest because here was this amazing band. I definitely encourage anyone who doesn’t know the Grateful Dead to go listen to Jerry or see interviews, because it’s just fascinating to hear how his mind worked, and how smart he was and how deep. H could hold court with anybody, whether it be a PhD or what have you. It speaks to the idea of multiple intelligences, right? It’s not all STEM or academics. There’s a lot more going on here, and Jerry could speak on so much of that. But I do feel like that, probably for him, it would have been way too boring to play “Hotel California” note by note, over and over.

But he wanted to have that ability to have the freedom. I remember, I don’t know if you’ve watched those Meet Up at the Movies that the Dead have done. Every every one or two years they’ll release a show that you can go to the movies and see.

One of them was from Europe ‘72 and I think it was the Beat Club. It has a blue screen line on there because it’s for TV. For some reason they have to do a second take – I don’t know why – for “Playing in the Band.” When you’re in the theater watching that, and probably if you’re watching live, you go “Oh geez, here we go. ‘Playing in the Band” again. You know, it’s a pretty long song and they’re going to play it again? That’s kind of weird. We just saw them play it. Then you watch that and the jams are totally different. It’s amazing! And they were playing half an hour apart, an hour apart, whatever it is. Incredible!

It’s like when you’re in a “Dark Star,” you get lost and forget that you’re in a “Dark Star.” You’re just somewhere else entirely; then they bring it back around. It’s like totally different songs.

Right! I think that journey that bands take when they’re doing a “Dark Star” or something like that, or any of us as we’re jamming with it, it’s very liberating. As a psychotherapist, putting my hat on in that realm, it’s a diminishment of your ego; your defenses come down; you’re just in the music.

For the players who are playing, it is the reward for them, this freedom. Then for us fans, as you were saying, we’re on that same journey and our minds are wandering, and there’s just so much healing that can go on in that way. I know I have reflected on things that were sometimes not always positive in life during those long jams. I know from trauma therapy that’s a way that you are healed, right? If you had, let’s just say, some negative experience – a parent or coach or teacher yelled at you or something – and for some reason that came into your mind while you were watching the “Dark Star,” your memory of that experience is going to be very different than it would have been had you just remembered it if you were sober and on a plane, if you will.

Maybe you’re involved in psychedelics in some way, maybe not. But either way, you’re on this journey where your ego has been diminished; you’re being very present; you’re listening to this music that’s what you find enjoyable. This memory comes through and you might look at it differently. I know that’s happened to me where I kind of think, “oh, well, I’m sure that coach was probably…that was hurtful but I know he meant well or was trying to get the best out of me,” or whatever it is. You kind of refrain in a more positive way, and then you feel better. You are healed a little bit. I feel like, when you do that, times hundreds of shows, you’re going to feel more whole through that process.

Yes, there are a lot of Dead heads who have fallen into the pitfalls of addiction and hardship. But the vast majority of us have known when to hang up the phone when we got the message and have been able to learn a lot about ourselves through this music. Also, I would be bereft not naming the lyrics, I mean oh my God. Hunter and Barlow, Garcia and Weir, and Mickey Hart included as part of “Fire on the Mountain” – I mean, those lyrics, they’re poetry and they speak to us. I’m thinking of Bill Walton, who we recently lost, such a gem of a human being. There’s an amazing clip of him at the Sweetwater talking about how he says, “I’m different. That’s what’s changed. Every new time I get to hear it, I’m different.” That is so profound; so true.

It’s not just that the band is doing it differently each time, or that these tribute bands do each time live, but also we’re changing in our lives as we age and grow and reflect. So, the lines in the songs speak to us in a different way than they did when I was 18 at Hartford Civic Center now that I am 54.

We grow with the music, and it changes. It’s like the back and forth.

Exactly! And what’s so cool, there’s a line that maybe kind of spoke to you as an 18-year-old full of beans and testosterone or whatever. Later on, you see a depth to it that is completely different. I know for me, probably because of my age – with people like Bill Walton and friends and loved ones that have perished – I think a lot more about mortality now. So, that’s a whole different lens I’m putting over the band and their catalog, and I find that super helpful. Just as an example, I was mentioning Mickey Hart, Jerry, and Hunter with “Fire on the Mountain – that idea of “you’re here alone, there’s no one to compete.” I used to think about that in so many different ways like, ‘okay, I’ve got to focus on myself, not other people’ – that sort of thing early in my life. But later in my life I’ve had some health scares and had some people pass. You really think about how each one of us, we are in a tribe together. I definitely feel we are, and we’re not alone in that you and I are on the same weird journey we’re doing. But no matter, for sure, our unique individual journey is our own, right? So, we are alone in that way. We are born, we watch this movie of our lives, and then that movie fades. So, it’s very liberating to think about that line: ‘you’re here alone, there is no one to compete.’

You don’t have to worry about, ‘oh, I don’t have enough money orI haven’t had this many books published,’ whatever it is that that people might worry about and try to stack themselves up against other humans. This is each one of our journeys. Anyway, that’s an example to me on a line that’s changed it’s meaning for me.

For sure. In my experience, the music and the whole idea are about embracing the light and the dark, like both sides of the coin.

Yes, Cameron!

Sort of what is going into it boldly, I suppose.

Oh yes! Skull and Roses, right?

Shadow work.

Right, that’s the thing – shadow work. They were not afraid, right? Every silver lining has a touch of grey. It’s not, ‘there’s a silver lining, just look on the bright side.’ It’s like, ‘no, every silver lining has a touch of grey.’ We’re looking from the other side of that. Our culture so often doesn’t want us to go there, right? I feel like a lot of the people who I’ve met on the scene have lived textured lives. They’ve lost a lot and have struggled, and they’ve been buoyed by this music, this catalog, and this community. I’m part of it and I feel like that’s so important because it helps with some of the fear around [mortality.]

Because if you embrace it, it’s not so foreign and scary. Also, you are appreciative of the notion that it is ephemeral and there’s a magic and a joy in that. It’s a weird thing that we do here as humans, but I definitely feel like the Grateful Dead tap into something older or something wiser in us. I know for me personally, it was really evident when I was getting into the band in the mid 80s and seeing all this iconography. There’s a lot of old vibes in it and I feel like that taps into some overall magic as well. I mean, they played the pyramids, right? I mean, how cool is that?

You mentioned Robert Hunter. A lot of those songs sound like they were written in the 1800s.

Exactly! I love his line in Long Strange Trip where they challenge him on his lyrics then he quotes “Dark Star.” Like, ‘wait, what’s not to understand?’

Like what else could it possibly mean? “Transitive nightfall of diamonds,” it’s obvious!

It’s like that line from “Franklin’s Tower,” ‘if you plant ice you’re going to harvest wind.’ That is such a weird idea. How do you plant ice? Yet, you can imagine hammering icicles into a cold field as they thaw with cool breezes blowing over; just the notion of what that is – planting ice. I think those those lines really help us navigate our lives and, like I said before, it’s really fun to re-explore them through time.

It’s yet another one of those lines that could be interpreted a million different ways. Hunter’s stuff, it was almost absurd, but not quite – just enough to like give it infinite meaning. You can apply [them] to so many different concepts. Just all these songs, it’s amazing, really.

I love our jam scene, but I think that is one of the big differences between the Grateful Dead and other jam bands. You can look at the jams themselves and how strong they are [and] the improvisation. But then there’s the other two parts to me of this trifecta, which is the jams, then there’s the melodies, and then there’s the lyrics.

There are songs that the heart of these improvisations, that’s what grabbed me initially. I was always a “songs” guy, and I was like, “Oh, this isn’t just the aimless noodling.” There are a lot of misconceptions about the band. I think it’s because culture is moving more every day to a place where no one appreciates nuance. Everything has to be this or that. So [the perception is], “oh, this is hippie dippie music,” or whatever to dismiss it. But worlds and universes are baked into the Grateful Dead as an entity.

You’re totally right. It’s human nature to classify. It’s easy to write it off and I can see why. Like so many things in life it’s easy to classify-mop something. But then when you really start to do a deep dive on it, you can see the value. You this incredible community. There’s all these cottage industries around it. I can’t remember how many years Dark Star Jubilee has gone on, but I was told there’s never been a violent incident. They’ve never had to have like police drag somebody out there, and it’s like 3500 attendees every year. It’s just amazing for rock ‘n’ roll.

It’s great that that spirit was recaptured because in the ‘90s, for a brief time, when they went to the stadium shows, it started to ramp up and get a little ugly and weird. They were the sort of invaders of the community. I actually saw Dead and Company at Deer Creek last year over the summer and it was just it was wild just being there. I feel like you if I were in your shoes, I would have that with the instruments themselves. Is it hard to step outside of the fandom and be a professional in that regard, or is it not really necessary?

I mean, I feel like people ask me, ‘does it sink in? And it truly, truly does not. It does not. You’re never not a fan. It is so exciting and shocking. It is a responsibility, and I worry about that more than the money. There is this responsibility I think all of us feel to preserve this music and this legacy. It’s just really fun to all be a part of this soup and to see it be so healthy and strong. I also want to name John Mayer. He’s brought so many fans into our scene in such a good way. I really enjoy Dead and Co, I’m going to go see them at The Sphere and I can’t wait. it’s just a new interpretation of the music. I also have friends who are hardcore heads I knew from back in the day who refused to see Dark Star, you know. So they’re definitely not seeing John Mayer.

Right. The purists.

I think there’s a niche of those fans who you might hear sometimes on the radio or whatever saying like, ‘oh, it was over in ’73,’ you know? Which is crazy, right? Anytime I talk to a head who’s talking like that I’m like, ‘okay, so you’re going to remove Terrapin Station? You don’t need that? Shakedown? Really? You don’t need that? You’re done in ’73?

There’s a quote from Jerry I believe from when someone asked what the Grateful Dead was, to which he said, ‘It’s whatever you need it to be.’ I think that it’s something different for everyone. I wouldn’t agree it ended in ‘73 or whatever it is, but somebody might. I guess it’s good for them.

That’s so good, it’s so true.

But no “Althea?” It does seem that stuff like Shakedown [Street] and even Go to Heaven get a bad rap. I feel like all their studio albums are pretty solid. [There’s this perception that] the studio albums are bad and [the worthwhile content is] all live. But a lot of that stuff holds up.

Absolutely, Cameron. I was told the same when I was becoming a head. Like, ‘the studio albums, you can listen to them. But it’s all about the bootlegs.’ But I didn’t feel that way at all. I remember vividly listening to “Pride of Cucamonga” on my Walkman and being like, ‘this is totally cool. I love this.’ There were little to no versions of the Dead playing that live and it’s just a totally cool song and very interesting. I love “Terrapin [Station].” A lot of people rag on “Terrapin” with the orchestral production and the chorus and it’s freaking amazing! I love the studio [version] of “Terrapin.”

I think a lot about the early 70s, when Jerry and Bob, rather than doing their respective solo albums, made a Grateful Dead follow-up to Europe 72 or [American] Beauty or whatever you want to call it. Would the public’s perception of their studio prowess be different? Because those records were stacked with songs that would become staples.

I would hope! So much of the of the catalog is excellent, just objectively. My stepbrother used to say that if “Passenger” was played by The Rolling Stones, everybody would know it. I totally agree. It’s a kick*ss song. If you’re becoming a Deadhead, that’s like a song you stumble upon at some point. Someone isn’t going to name that to you as you’re getting into it. You’re a Beatles fan; “If I Had the World to Give – that sounds like Paul McCartney to me.

When I first heard that I thought, “did George Harrison play on this? Did he write this? It’s so Beatlesy.”

Right! It’s so Beatles! I don’t know this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that had inspired Jerry. But yeah, I would hope they would get more of that respect because I agree with you. The catalog, the prerecorded catalog, if you will, is really, really strong and interesting. It’s just one slice of what they were up to at that moment. And yes, they were more hemmed in by track length and things like that. So, for sure I get all that. But even that’s interesting, right? Because if you think about the famous quote by Twain about brevity being really hard to do as a writer. How much harder then was the studio version of “Fire Mountain?” Now that you’ve got to fit in the solo with lyrics over it instead of just having the solo and that’s that. I find that interesting. It might not be my favorite, but I find it interesting.

The impetus of this conversation was the release of a Grateful: The Music Plays the Band. How early on did Grateful Guitars become involved in that project?

Super early. As I was getting to know all the luthiers and all the bands, the notion of The Music Plays the Band struck me as such an important idea. Because in the notion of the Grateful Dead being a genre instead of just a band, I think it’s just so lovely. It’s a thread that goes through from the Grateful Dead all the way to a reggae band playing reggaetón music or Ukrainian China>Rider. It is because of the connections being made with gifting instruments and how we became friends who were connected to some of these bands. It’s all interwoven at the Grateful Guitar Foundation and Andy Logan Productions. It is all part of that soup that brought this album to fruition. We asked lots of bands for pieces, and this is what came back to us. I know the Garcia family has said many times how Jerry started the conversation and we want to keep the conversation going, and to me, that’s what this album is doing.

There’s a ton of great material on this thing, a great “Stella Blue” from Oteil [Burbridge.]

Oh my God, yeah. I don’t know if you listen to this podcast at all, but he is a deep guy. You can you can see that in his playing and you can feel it.

The notion of the music playing the band is such a neat sentiment of the approach to music: not as a means to an end or a tool to get from here to there, but as a vessel for the music itself. It’s almost a living thing.

Exactly! Rob Eaton [of Dark Star Orchestra] who mastered this album – he’s a dear friend, incredible player, and unbelievably talented musician – he was telling me that when it’s the best, when he is really there. The gear and everything is working perfectly, he’s able to let go and disappear into the music completely. That’s his experience when he’s on stage and he was sharing that with me. Like when he’s doing the Dark Star Jubilee, that’s when the magic happens – when you’re really letting go and letting the music play the band, right?

People have said to me, ‘I feel like it plays itself sometimes,’ I feel that too. I’m not that skilled, but I can do some lead work and stuff. I’ve been playing over “Dark Star,” which has pretty easy chords – and suddenly I’ve felt pulled to hit a note. It might be up two frets and over one or whatever, but I just get pulled to do it and it rings out, and it’s like, ‘Oh my God, yes!’ I’ll have no idea what drove me to do that, you know, but there’s something about this music that has that effect.

I feel like a lot of Jerry tunes were built for that. They often have sort of simple chords, but what it becomes is pretty complex, and the way the chords move around each other. It’s all like G-D-A – that sort of thing. But it ends up becoming almost free jazz or something, especially when you add all the other guys.

Completely! I think it’s because they were really intelligent and wanted to inspire each other, and never wanted to seem boring. So they worked really hard. The choices Jerry made were often completely out-of-the-box, like. But look at how it sounds. It’s perfect; it’s brilliant; it’s genius. I agree with you, it’s like this seemingly maybe easy thing that is completely unconventional.

It’s like you were saying, I don’t think Jerry is in that moment thinking like, “Well, I’ll go to the diminished flatted 9th,” but something pulls him to that movement, and it’s like it’s the music playing the band.

Exactly! Then it opens up the ear of Phil or Bobby and it’s ‘oh, I see what he’s doing there! So I’m going to augment what he’s doing and I’m going do this over here – I’m going go to this chord voicing to make that work. It’s the idea of the sum being greater than the parts.

This has been so great! But I’m sure you’re very busy, so I’ll let you get back to work. Thanks so much for your time!

It’s my pleasure. Please keep in touch! We’re always bringing Gator out on tour and doing things. Please feel free to reach out when we’re in your neck of the woods!